Curse

Horseman Of War · Aug 07, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

So what do you guys think... will playing through as a paragon or assassin be worth it or should everyone roll up a monk now and get it over with?

My perspective is based on things such as Deep and DoA... I dont know Urgoz well enough to extend my comment to include it.

I know as well as the next guy that the "deep wall" or "drop rocks" groups are simply tried and true ways of completing the elite missions. Same with the Barrage teams of ToPk. They are not the Only way, just the most popular and accepted.

Dont get me wrong, I dont want the whole game to be a pug-fest cakewalk. Im just concerned that with coming to the end of the GW1 series, that groups are still so basic in their construction. Im just hoping that the end-game goodness will be shared by more than some nukers, healers, and maybe a bipper or tank.

-Loki- · Aug 07, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Very unlikely. You seem to not understand the roles these dungeons will play in EotN. The majority (if not all) of them will be the first story arc, which you need to complete before you can play the Tarnished Coast/Shiverpeaks/Charr Homelands story arcs. If they were class biased to the extent that DoA/Urgoz/Deep are, then a alot of peoples characters would never get to play through EotN.

GloryFox · Aug 07, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

You may have already realized it but you ask a very legitimate question. Even though a Paragon would be perfect for Urgoz prejudices still run deep. As for the Assassin unless they are running Critical Agility at rank 10 I won't consider adding one.

HOWEVER If they do have Critical Agility at rank 10 I'm adding them and would be more than happy to monk for one. Heck I'll even advertise GLF SIN with CAr10 in towns. So I strongly suggest all of you Assassin players get that skill to maximum potential because your about to be requested. IMO the only class I'll ignore in towns will be the Warrior plain and simple. Honestly whats a warrior good for since the armor stack nerf, now they just draw aggro and die. With the new Sunspear skill the average Assassin now has a constant Armor Rating of 95-110 (about the same as a Warrior) with an IAS (Increased Attack Speed) better than anything a warrior can produce AND a better DPS (Damage Per Second) plus conditions to boot. Even a Dervish can out tank a Warrior with better self heals and better DPS from enchants. Warriors just plain suck now IMO.

As for the Paragons I personally think it would be fun to run a 8 man Paragon party through GW:EN Shouting in chorus as we go marching on.

It would be a fun experience at least.

Necromancers should not have a problem joining teams, everyone likes a good MM or Spiteful Necro.

Elementalists should also have an easy time joining. However I hear Lighting Ice and Earth damage may be the tools necessary to get the jobs done.

Ritualists will get overlooked again I think. Even though they are better healers, and the spirits give nice synergy.

Monks,,,, should you even worry about it? Unless you really do suck in that case a HERO monk usually does the job.

Dervishes, might get overlooked. In packs they can pack quite a punch and do more DPS than a Warrior and are usually easier to heal as long as you avoid most enchant heals. They work great with Ritualist healers and work great with weapon spells as well.

Mesmers should also have a better time getting into groups Cry of Pain is fantastic for spike damage. Here is a hint, instead of having two Elementalists try using two Mesmers with Cry of Pain at the Sunspear maximum, you have some good AOE combined with some wonderful spike hexes. The combination is quite brutal.

Warriors..eh why bother anymore? Honestly all the stances have lousy durations, lousy DPS, lousy IAS, and you can be out done by the SIN counterparts. I would take an Assassin over a Warrior any day of the week now in PvE.

As for Ranger since when did a Ranger / Pet team ever really fail in normal (including most elite areas) PvE,,,, hardly ever a time I can think of.

Darkobra · Aug 07, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

After looking up on Critical Agility, I think I have a reason to now start an assassin of my own. Last time I had an assassin was long before Nightfall and Heroes. It was usually easy enough to survive but I had to know when to pull out. Now with CA, I feel it will be a lot more fun and unlocks potential to new build experiments.

Fergalicious92 · Aug 07, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

well so far every chapter's elite places had a class that was favored. Hopefully with the dungeons in Gwen this will NOT be the case. With the sunspear/luxon-kurzick skills, all the classes that were over looked got HUGE HUGE HUGE buff. I totally agree with GloryFox with the Sins taking over the jobs of tanks. CA rocks period.

Thargor · Aug 07, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

The only reason any class is favored over another is because someone forgot to tell most players that the wiki is not the bible. Any class can do everything in the game. Unfortunately unless you are in a good guild that helps each other get thru anything it is gonna be a rough time getting certain classes into groups.
Lets take a post from above for example:

Quote:

You may have already realized it but you ask a very legitimate question. Even though a Paragon would be perfect for Urgoz prejudices still run deep. As for the Assassin unless they are running Critical Agility at rank 10 I won't consider adding one.

Quote:

Warriors..eh why bother anymore? Honestly all the stances have lousy durations, lousy DPS, lousy IAS, and you can be out done by the SIN counterparts. I would take an Assassin over a Warrior any day of the week now in PvE.

This poster seems to hate the fact that Paragons are not part of the wiki worshipers accepted classes for elite areas but then goes on to hate on sins.
Then says a sin is ok but only if it has a certain skill at a certain rank. Then later on says that he would take any sin instead of a warrior with no mention of the required skill mentioned earlier. Sounds like a whole lot of confusion went into that post.
I love people that refuse to take certain classes into an elite mission, it helps me find better people to group with.
I have personally seen every class get thru urgoz, and all areas of the DoA except the Citadel, and it doesn't seem that anyone can beat mallyx right now so it really doesnt matter what your team is made up of.

Tuesg · Aug 07, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I would go as far to say no where is really class biased in game terms in any, sure areas might be class biased because payers make it that way but elite areas can be done with out your standard cookie cutter build.

Occasionally it might make it more difficult but if your a decent enough player and are using sensible sorts of builds any class can play through any area. Of course getting a group is a problem in less you have a guild group or lots of in game friends.

I doubt any of the GW:EN dungeons will be inherently class biased either being near the start of the game, however where players try to make them inherently class biased is yet to be seen. I would imagine most of these dungeons would be possible with h/h and some micro management.

bilateralrope · Aug 07, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Very unlikely. You seem to not understand the roles these dungeons will play in EotN. The majority (if not all) of them will be the first story arc, which you need to complete before you can play the Tarnished Coast/Shiverpeaks/Charr Homelands story arcs. If they were class biased to the extent that DoA/Urgoz/Deep are, then a alot of peoples characters would never get to play through EotN.

I've never seen anything saying that the dungeons will be part of the main storyline or not. Link please.

Tuesg · Aug 07, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

I've never seen anything saying that the dungeons will be part of the main storyline or not. Link please.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/GW:EN

The PvE journey in the expansion will take the player through "acts":

* Act 1: Covers 18 dungeons, and involves aiding the Dwarves in their struggle against a "fiery Destroyer". This will later lead you to the aforementioned Asurans and Norns.
* Act 2: Three story arcs, which can be done in any order; exploring the Norns in the Far Shiverpeaks, the Charr homeland north of Ascalon, and defending the Asura on the Tarnished Coast against the Destroyer.
* Act 3: The battle against the Great Destroyer.

More so do you think the whole game is going to be based around about 12 explorable map areas?

Nexilinix · Aug 07, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I hope that every proffession is needed to complete a dungeon. Like u can't complete a random dungeon without a disenchanter, so you need a dervish, necromancer or mesmer for that role. Or you need an proffession that can increase party's movement speed to evade fireballs to surfive.
This way Anet will make every proffession NEEDED to complete the dungeons.

LifeInfusion · Aug 07, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

If the demo with the fireballs shooting out the doors is any indication, you won't be able to just tank/nuke/heal...

Dev121 · Aug 07, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I think that the main story should have no limits to what you can use , so you can just tank.nuke.heal... or you can throw a assasin into the mix. Are the dungeons part of the main story arc? As i'd like to see some more useful missions where other professions are useful , of course we may be hoping for something thats already been made

.

GloryFox · Aug 07, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

posted by Thargor
This poster seems to hate the fact that Paragons are not part of the wiki worshipers accepted classes for elite areas but then goes on to hate on sins.
Then says a sin is ok but only if it has a certain skill at a certain rank. Then later on says that he would take any sin instead of a warrior with no mention of the required skill mentioned earlier. Sounds like a whole lot of confusion went into that post.

I think you over analyzed my post. So I will try and clarify some things.
1) I don't hate sins, I think they are a fantastic class. However the Sin suffers from one small drawback that becomes evident when played by a bad player, lousy armor. Critical Agility makes up for this downfall by a huge factor. If you love your SIN and you understand the drawbacks to the class then you must understand what this skill means to you in the grand scheme of all things PvE. Therefore a good SIN player will (should) have that skill equipped to fulfill his role in a PvE enviroment.

2) I will take almost anyone over a Warrior unless I know the player. I have a Warrior, Ive had him for over 2 years. I have all Warrior skills for him, I have 15k armor and 5 Helms for various builds. In truth I know the class extremely well. However the Warrior of 2 years ago and the Warriors of today are two different breeds. After the armor stacking nerf a Warrior has become no better at holding aggro than an Assassin or Dervish. The Assassin has the unique advantage of a far better DPS. Whereas the Dervish has the unique advantage of better self health management and AOE DPS. When faced with a choice between an Assassin and a Dervish, unless that Assassin can show he can manage his armor and damage mitigation well, I'll take a Dervish. Thus when faced with a choice of a Warrior and an Assassin only. If that Assassin has the Critical Agility skill at Sunspear rank 10 I'll pick him over the Warrior. I hope that clarifies my reasons for choices.

Quote:

I love people that refuse to take certain classes into an elite mission, it helps me find better people to group with.

I don't Ive been saying for a long time now that Paragons and Assassins have a place in Elite missions. But most people simply do not understand the concept of synergy shouts and shadow stepping. I think every class has a place in elite missions but some people play some classes better than others. Honestly how hard is it to run B/P in Urgoz and people wonder about the maturity level there? What harm is it to add a Paragon or 2 in Urgoz? Elite areas are for elite players. As long as the players are willing to play at their best there should be room for any class including Warriors, Assassins, Dervishes, Mesmers and Paragons.

White knight lord · Aug 07, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

The certain builds for Tombs,UW,FoW,Urgoz,Deep,and DoA work so why change if they work? I Don't think many SINS will be in GW:EN just beacuse well not many people know how to play that class to its maximum(and not many people like them in PvE).People that don't know how to play a class is what get people to labeling the class as Bad or Good (especially the SINS from Factions) I see as far as tanking are going to be Warriors,Dervs,or even ObsidianFlesh elementalists. Rits and Paras are a good support char too if you know how to play them I personally prefer a Rit in PvP over a healing monk and para over a ranger (sometimes). As far as classes going through GW:EN any class can just..some might need more "help" then others from henchies/heros to friends or guilds. No matter what place you go to as far as Tombs,UW,FoW,Urgoz,Deep,and DoA or even the new dungens people will find chars with builds that work exceptionally well and will want to stick with that build since is works.

Mordakai · Aug 07, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

As Loki said, I don't think the Dungeons will be as challeging as the Elite areas. I hope not anyway.

I suspect it will be like Nightfall, where most of the areas will be "soloable" with Heros and Henchies.

Bryant Again · Aug 07, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

I think ANet is starting to realize that they difficulty they want may be impossible to achieve, so I think the "other" professions should be safe.

bilateralrope · Aug 07, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I think you over analyzed my post. So I will try and clarify some things.
1) I don't hate sins, I think they are a fantastic class. However the Sin suffers from one small drawback that becomes evident when played by a bad player, lousy armor. Critical Agility makes up for this downfall by a huge factor. If you love your SIN and you understand the drawbacks to the class then you must understand what this skill means to you in the grand scheme of all things PvE. Therefore a good SIN player will (should) have that skill equipped to fulfill his role in a PvE enviroment.

Crit Agility is only really useful if your actually being attacked. However a good sin player will of learned about the aggro mechanics well enough to know how to keep the aggro off them, which is what I actually do most of the time. Sure the IAS is nice, but its not really needed since your still limited to your attack skills recharge rate.

Div · Aug 07, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I'm guessing the GWEN dungeons will be somewhat equivalent to the southern shiverpeaks, fire islands, luxon/kurzick areas, desolation, and realm of torment. This means you'll be able to make it through with any profession, though of course certain professions will be more desirable than others. But much less rigid team structure than deep or urgoz.

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 07, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

The reasoning behind elite areas has always been, "If 'X' works, that's what we need!". And since that is the way people think in real life as well, then why do you think it will change?

Everywhere you go in GW, you need a "Tank", a "Nuker", a "Healer", and a "fourth guy" to round out a 4 man team. This is the building block of a team in general PvE right from Post Searing Ascalon to The Gate of Abaddon. What happens in 6 man areas? These basic 4 are the core team, add a secondary "Healer/Protection Enchanter" and a second "Melee type".

In 8 man areas, the demographic of the "team" changes drasticly. 2 Tank/Melee types,2 Healer/Protection Enchanters(usually 1 of each), a Nuker, a Minion Master(Necro Specific appears for the first time),and the last 2 are really open to interpretation by the person(s) forming the team at the time is the average team makeup. This will change depending on the popularity of "What works?" for the area in question, especially in elite areas of play. I have never seen assassins being "requested" for a group-EVER. Critical Agility is a beautiful skill that makes the assassin play as a top notch melee attacker. In that case, PvE Only skill FTW!

However, to say a sin with this particular skill, maxed out is prefered over a warrior-that's an opinion that most would still find questionable. 1 skill that does a variety of things to make what wasn't even wanted into very playable is all fine and all, but in reality it just put the sin on par with the warrior in PvE-especially since the sin players were getting killed for trying to do that same thing from the beginning. ANet just gave the dagger masters what they always wanted. To be tanks.

Anyway, elite areas change nothing of the basic team demographic. The basic 4 members are in every team created. The 6 man team shows up as well, since it is still built around the 4 man paradigm. Only in places with no life/Undead enemies stop the generic MM from being requested, usually changed for a BIPper or a Spiteful/Spoil Victor Necro. Even DoA uses the 4 man paradigm for its core. That shouldn't change in GW:EN, just hope the rest of the professions get more love this time around.

GloryFox · Aug 07, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

posted by bilateralrope
Crit Agility is only really useful if your actually being attacked. However a good sin player will of learned about the aggro mechanics well enough to know how to keep the aggro off them, which is what I actually do most of the time. Sure the IAS is nice, but its not really needed since your still limited to your attack skills recharge rate.

You are half correct and the IAS Critical Agility gives is rather nice as well. I agree a good sin player will have learned about the aggro mechanics of most creatures in GW so I don't agrue that point. However in a blind PUG (I'm beginning to hate that word) you never really know how good or bad that player is that you pick up. I want some kind of assurance that an assassin can fight and survive. Showing your Sunspear Rank @ 10 and having that skill loaded is a type of indication of a higher chance at questing survivability.

Don't you agree? Would you want some kind of assurance that player you pick up has a chance at surviving?

I like pick up groups, I find them interesting and fun, but I'm veteran enough to know the potential pitfalls of picking up a really bad sin player. However I am also aware of the benefits of a good sin player as well. So I will seek them out now if they have the right set of skills for surviving and dealing LOTS of damage. Critical Agility grants both Armor that is highly needed and a faster DPS when attacking. Does that not fit what you look for in an assassin? or is the concept of actually GLF assassin a new concept.